Interviewed on The Unschooler Experiment Podcast #14: Not Alone in the Woods

Not too long ago I had a very nice conversation with Peter Kowalke, creator of the Grown Without Schooling documentary, writer/editor of the blog The Unschooler Experiment, and producer of a podcast of the same name.  And now that conversation is featured in The Unschooler Experiment Podcast #14: Not Alone in the Woods.  Listen by clicking the link just provided, or the below photo.

 

As usual when I do any type of interview, I always start thinking, as soon as I've finished, of all the things I wish I'd said differently.  However, I genuinely enjoyed this conversation, so I think that's probably a good sign! Let me know what you think.

The Ignorant Commenters Strike Again: "But You Have to Learn to Get Along With People You Don't Like!"

"But you have to learn to get along with people you don't like!" Says yet another commenter on the latest mainstream media piece on unschooling (and Sudbury Valley Schools, in this case).

I'm baffled by just how nonsensical (to borrow one of my sister's favorite words) the reactions people have on first hearing about unschooling often are, but this might just be one of the most baffling.  Because it seems to imply that unschoolers never see any people.  Ever.  School is obviously the only place where children and teens can find and interact with other human beings.  Obviously.

The people who make such statements must believe the above.  Otherwise, how could they possibly think that I, or other unschoolers, never meet (or met) people we don't like?

I can think of plenty of people I don't get along with, or don't particularly like.  The kid who used to be one of my sister's best friends.  The guy who derails the conversation at every workshop he attends.  Multiple people I had to work with when I went to Cadets.  Various extended family members.  Hell, a few people I've met at Not Back to School Camp and conferences!

Sadly, life is filled with people who, to put it bluntly, are assholes.  People who treat others poorly.  Bullies.  People who don't seem to realize that working respectfully with others is even an option.  You can (and will) definitely find those people in school.  But, even if you never set foot in a school, you'll still find those people.  The whole thing with living and learning in the real world is that, well, you tend to run into the things commonly found in, you know, the real world.

All sarcasm aside, people definitely do need to learn how to work with people whom you don't particularly get along with, but you definitely don't need a special place to do that.  You just need to live.

Now, I also think it's important to note that what I'm talking about is just "not getting along," or not particularly liking someone.  Dealing with low-grade assholes.  I wonder if some of the people who question whether unschoolers will ever learn to get along with people they don't like, are actually just making a softer statement to the effect that Kids Need to be Bullied to Get Tough.  'Cause that's a whole different issue!

And it probably won't surprise anyone when I say that abuse, no matter what form it takes, is never something hat should be considered "good" or "character building."  Just picture me saying NO in the most forceful possible way.

Comments on internet articles are often a toxic place to read, but they can be useful (they've sparked many posts before, for instance!) in seeing what a lot of people actually think, and can be used to call out ignorance and bigotry, and share some actual truth and experience instead.

I feel like I've said most of what I say in this post before, but I've decided to take hold of any spark of blog-writing inspiration that comes along, and to let go of an attempt at perfection, because otherwise, i won't end up writing anything at all!

So there you have it.  And now I'm wondering what you thought of the latest mainstream article on unschooling and Sudbury schools?  Did you read the comments, and if so, did any thoughts or posts (share the link!) stem from doing so?

Sudbury: the Unschooling Schools, a Guest Post by Bruce L. Smith

I've wanted to share some guest posts on freeschooling and democratic schools on this blog for a while now, and with the recent article on CNN talking about both unschooling and Sudbury schools, this article seems particularly relevant!  So I am very happy to present to you Bruce L. Smith on the Sudbury model schools:

After a few years’ teaching in the public schools of Columbia, Missouri, Bruce L. Smith left to find his true calling as an advocate for the Sudbury model of education. Bruce has founded and/or worked for Sudbury schools in Illinois, Florida, and Colorado, where he’s been on staff at Alpine Valley School since 1998. In 2005 he created the Center for Advancing Sudbury Education to promote the visibility and viability of this uniquely empowering form of schooling. More of Bruce’s writings on the subject can be found at http://www.alpinevalleyschool.com/blog and http://news.change.org/authors/bruce-smith.

I’ve known about unschooling for a long time, and I’ve long been struck by its resonance with the Sudbury model of education. For the past fourteen years I’ve worked for these “unschooling schools,” so when Idzie called for guest posts on the subject, I was excited at the chance to share my views on our respective approaches to self-directed learning.

The Sudbury model was first unveiled in 1968 by Sudbury Valley School in west suburban Boston. Since then it’s spread to a few dozen schools (about two-thirds of them in North America), all based on two simple premises: first, that children are innately, powerfully curious, driven to understand and master the world around them; and second, that the best education recognizes and respects this basic truth, allowing all young people the freedom and responsibility to discover their individual paths.

While a number of schools talk this talk, I find Sudbury unusually thorough in also walking the walk. As with unschoolers, Sudbury students freely chart the course of their days, months, and years. There’s no hierarchy of pursuits (e.g., academic vs. hands-on), and all learning happens organically—self-initiated, self-directed, and self-evaluated. Classes and other structured learning situations (e.g., internships) do have a place at Sudbury schools, but only as students seek them out. The bulk of learning at Sudbury schools comes in the course of daily life, and much of it takes the form of play and conversation.

In fact, the philosophical similarities between unschooling and Sudbury schooling are so extensive, I’ve often borrowed from the thoughts of unschoolers to help assure families that trusting their children’s drive is not only valid, but leads to the most effective learning. And that in turn reminds me that unschoolers and Sudbury families have this in common as well: many of our relatives, friends, and acquaintances think we’re crazy and/or putting our children at risk. So sharing our successes—concrete reminders, large and small, of how (and how well) freedom works—seems like one big favor we could do for each other.

Beyond their faith in young people’s nature and competence, what really makes Sudbury schools unique is that their structure is determined by the people directly involved. That is, everything from the rules to the budget to hiring is shaped by a democratic process in which a student’s vote is equal to that of any adult. This structure is flexible—within each Sudbury school, and among the various schools—and changes can be made at any time.

So how do Sudbury schools act like schools? Well, first of all, we do have these physical facilities where students gather on a daily basis. Attendance requirements are partly a legal matter, partly a means of ensuring continuity in the school community. Yet as I’ve suggested, there is significant flexibility here: at my school, for instance, students can arrive anywhere between 8 and 11am, and are required to stay only five hours (though our school is open nine hours, and many students stay past the minimum). With an Open Campus policy, most Sudbury students can come and go freely throughout the day, so long as they fulfill their commitments at school.

And these commitments are fairly modest. A Judicial Committee meets regularly to handle complaints about people’s behavior, and people are expected to serve turns on the committee and testify as needed. Also, Sudbury students are typically expected to do periodic cleaning chores. School governance is overseen by a weekly meeting that reviews the work of the Judicial Committee and considers proposals regarding rules and activities that could affect the normal flow of the day (e.g., field trips, parties, visitors). Then there are clerks and committees to whom much of the school’s business is delegated, along with certification (aimed at ensuring safe, responsible use of school equipment) and age-mixing (Sudbury schools are open to ages roughly corresponding to grades K-12).

In this environment, students not only learn to take responsibility for their own education: they also see what it takes to maintain an institution—though much of that organizational learning is optional. Students can attend School Meeting, serve on committees, and become clerks…or not. They’re expected to abide by the decisions of these bodies and officials, but their involvement is not required. Again, attendance, Judicial Committee, and chores are the only mandatory activities—and even here, students can work to change the relevant policies and requirements. Beyond these areas, students are free to do their own thing, so long as they respect everyone else’s right to do likewise.

In addition to all the freedom and flexibility, Sudbury schools also provide an ongoing, mixed-age community in which young people share responsibility for maintaining a culture of respect. Having such a space outside the family sphere gives our students the benefits of a diverse and vibrant “home away from home,” stretching them to try new things, new ways of thinking and being. In this dynamic, Sudbury students develop superlative interpersonal skills. There are constant opportunities to assess and regulate one’s behavior, and to work with people with whom one doesn’t already have a familial bond. Shy kids learn to speak up for themselves; overly assertive kids learn when and how to hold back. All eventually come into their own in the most thrilling ways imaginable.

Indeed, Sudbury schools foster a greater degree of autonomy and personal strength than I’ve seen anywhere else. These are indispensable qualities, since we all know that learning is not simply about pursuing our passions, but also figuring out how to realize those passions in contexts where people are not predisposed to assist us. Not all learning is sought: some is presented to us in the form of interruptions or obstacles—the people we don’t like or don’t get along with, but with whom we must co-exist; the hoops we must jump through to get what we want; things we’d rather put off indefinitely, but which must be done or learned before we can get where we’re going.

Bottom line, the Sudbury model is easily the most empowering form of education I’ve experienced in two decades as an educator: our students exhibit a maturity far beyond their years, while retaining the best child-like qualities. Articulate and self-possessed, they exemplify confidence and playfulness. Full of enthusiasm and free from fear, they are remarkably adept at knowing and becoming who they are, identifying and achieving their goals.

It is a good, good thing to celebrate the commonality and the diversity of our beliefs and practices. Unschoolers and Sudbury families alike face a status quo that seeks to invalidate us and make it unnecessarily difficult for us to follow our hearts. Getting to know each other’s approach better, sharing our ideas and success stories, and working to build acceptance for what we do can only help as we lay the groundwork for a future in which all children are truly free.

Teenage Rebellion: An Unschooling, Respectfully Parented Perspective

There seems to be the almost universal belief among North American parents (I'm sure this is a phenomena found elsewhere as well, but I'm just talking about what I've personally seen) that their kids, whether these are theoretical future children or actual kids, and whether they have yet to reach their teen years or not, will hate or at the very least dislike them.  Teenagers hate their parents: everyone knows that.

My mother has told me that when my sister and I were small, she used to say to my father that he had to take over primary parental duties once we hit our teen years.  She's told me that she loved being a parent, and loved spending time with us, right from the get-go, but being surrounded by warnings of "wait until they become teenagers!" she always thought that would change when we got older.

Out for a Fall walk in 2008. We so obviously hate each other.

I suppose it's actually a very reasonable belief that your teens will dislike you: after all, most teens I know and have known do dislike their parents!  What isn't true though is that that dislike is inevitable.

The dreaded teenage years came in my family, and likely to my parents surprise, nothing horrible happened.  I mean, problems came up in day to day life, for sure, but looking back, I actually think that in terms of parent-child relationships and issues over "discipline" type stuff the teen years were (and are, as my sister is still a teen) smoother than when we were younger.  I attribute this to the fact that it was a constant progress over the years from more traditional parenting to more respectful parenting (which mirrored our transition from relaxed homeschoolers to unschoolers).

Though there are definitely unschooling parents/teens who don't have very good relationships with their teens/parents, it seems that the majority of unschoolers really and truly do.  Which to me, is a wonderful thing to see.  And I believe the reason for that is actually pretty simple.

When the subject of "teenage rebellion" comes up now, my mother is fond of saying "why would you rebel, since there wasn't really anything to rebel against?"

Now, I think there is an important distinction to be made here: some parents proudly brag about how their teens aren't "rebellious," and what they really mean is that their children are obedient to their parents wishes (or, possibly more likely, are simply very good at hiding the aspects of their life that their parents would disapprove of).  When I say that most unschoolers I know, myself included, don't or didn't "rebel" against our parents in our teen years, I don't mean it's because we fit the perfect-child model of some narrow-minded authoritarian-parenting suburbanite.

While I've never been very big into alcohol or drugs, I definitely drank long before the legal drinking age (though admittedly the whole culture in my home province of Quebec is very different from the rest of North America, in that virtually everyone drinks at least some amount from the time they hit their teens, with the parents knowledge).  My sister, who turns 18 (legal drinking age in Quebec) this summer, has been going to bars since she was 15 or 16, with my parents knowledge (again, very common practice in Montreal).  Both my sister and I have been openly anti-state, anti-hierarchy, and anti-authority for years.  I've dyed my hair unusual colours, shaved the sides of my head, and worn clothes throughout my teen years that plenty of parents I know would have disapproved of.  Sometimes we stay out late into the night.  We've been known to participate in Pagan religious rituals.  We swear frequently.  We hang out with people who are big into drugs.  If all those things were listed entirely out of context, it would probably sound like we were the people that many parents warn their kids about (then again, for all I know, parents have warned their kids about us...)!

This was taken last summer, but I still have the same haircut (though I need to shave the sides again).

So why do we get along so well with our parents?  It's pretty simple: control.  Or, more accurately, the lack of control.

Think of the things that most commonly cause friction between teens and their parents: breaking curfew, bad marks in school, skipping school, using drugs, subscribing to different religious and political views than their parents, disobeying parents...

Compare this to a respectful unschooling parent: no school, no marks, no curfews, no orders, and a belief that teens are entitled to their own beliefs.

I want to make it clear though that being a respectful parent doesn't mean agreeing with or approving of everything your teen does: it just means accepting and not attempting to control what they do.  Thus a parent that's strongly anti-drugs of all types might share all their opinions on the issue with their teens, give them information on why they believe what they do, etc.  Yet despite that, they wouldn't ground, punish, or shame their teen if they came home high.  In a mutually respectful relationship, teens are far more likely to genuinely take their parents opinions into account when deciding what they want to do, but teens are still their own complete and autonomous people, and will make the choices they deem best for themselves in the end.

My mum, sis and I all attend this event, and my father cheerfully lets me tell him all about it.

Parents in general, from the most to least mainstream out there, all seem to frequently express a wish that their children communicate with them and be honest with them.  Yet what the more authoritarian and punitive parents seem oblivious too is that no one is going to be honest with someone else if they know that by being honest, they're opening themselves up to be yelled at, punished, shamed, or treated with anything less than respect.  Those parents also don't seem to realize that good communication has to work both ways: parents can't expect their children to spill all the secrets of their lives, all their important thoughts and deeds, to someone who thinks their own personal life is none of their kids business.

I also want to make it clear that I don't, and didn't when I was still in my teens (having just turned 20 a couple of months ago, I still have trouble remembering I'm no longer a teen!), tell my parents everything.  I'm my own person, with my own life, and some things stay private.  Sometimes because it's something very personal, or a secret not mine to share, and sometimes it's because I know it would worry or upset them to know something.  Yes, occasionally I keep things (and have kept things in the past) I know my parents would disapprove of away from them, not because of any fear that I would "get in trouble" or anything like that, but simply because I don't want them upset or worried about things they ultimately have no control over. 


My (and my sister's) relationship with my parents is really good.  We talk to each other about everything from how we've been feeling, what we've been doing, interesting links online or news stories, what our friends are up to...  We don't stray away from subjects such as drug use and other illegal activity.  I'll cheerfully announce that a friend is taking up graffiti, and Emi will call to say she's headed out to a bar after band practice, so expect her home late.  I've never worried about coming home smelling like weed.  And because of the relationship we have, my sister and I have never hesitated to get our parents help when we're worried about a friend doing hard drugs, and we'd never hesitate to call instead of driving home with someone who's drunk. 

I'm incredibly grateful for the relationship I have with my parents, and that my parents are the people that they are.

So in conclusion, here are my very inexpert opinions on what makes a good parent-teen bond: respect, honesty, communication, and a lack of coercion and control.  Basically?  Treating each other like full and complete human beings, with different desires, beliefs, aspirations, and experiences.  It's such a simple concept: don't be your teen's enforcer, be their partner.  And if more parents acted this way?  Well, then I think we'd start seeing a hell of a lot less of this "teen rebellion" thing!

A Parental Right?

Whenever I hear people saying things like "Unschooling obviously wouldn't work for everyone, but parents should have a right to choose what's best for their kids," or one of the hundred other variants on that same sentiment, I always feeling a niggling sense of unease.  It's never a statement I've agreed with.  But until recently, I wasn't entirely sure why it bothered me!  I mean, there's the obvious in that I believe unschooling can work for anyone, as unschooling is really free choice in education, so a child could choose something very structured, like their parent teaching them with a curriculum or going to school.  But there was something more than that bothering me, and I only realized yesterday what it was.

That type of statement puts the focus on parental rights.  "It's a parents right to educate their children however they choose!"

But to me?  Unschooling isn't about parental rights.  It's about children's rights.  A childs right to choose their own path in life, with the support and assistance of parental or other care-giving figures in their life.

Me and my sister, playing on the beach. (I needed a picture of kids, so why not one of my sis and I?)

In a society where children are truly an oppressed class, denied the rights given to older people, I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that something I see as potentially majorly liberating for children, the right to take control of their own education, is couched as being a parental right instead.  For sure, I think it's important for parents to have the right to make decisions about their children's care, instead of the government or other powerful institutions, but in talking about a "parents right to unschool," I feel like we're taking away the power, in words at the very least, and words to a large extent shape thoughts, from the children themselves.  And that's definitely not something I think anyone should be doing.

Am I, once again, just quibbling over small details in the language used?  Perhaps.  But when something unsettles me, even if it seems like just a small something, I feel it's important to examine why, and I often just like working out or sharing my reasoning here on the blog!

Interviewing Kelly Hogaboom, Unschooling Parent and Writer

For my second ever podcast, I interviewed Kelly Hogaboom, a "lady, writer, mother, wife, sister, daughter, stitcher, and subscription-service black market restauranteur living in wet and green Hoquiam, Washington State, the United States."  She's also a blogger, unschooling/life learning parent, and all-round very cool person, as well as being someone with LOTS of interesting and eye-opening things to say (about unschooling, adultism, feminism, parenting, consensual living, and a variety of other subjects).  It was really great talking to her!  And you can listen to the conversation we had right here:

Listen to internet radio with idzie on Blog Talk Radio

Or by going here. (Notice that there's the option to "play in your default player."  I know that on my rather difficult computer, that's the only option that works properly!  Just wanted to let you know, in case your computer is difficult as well...)

Links to Kelly's sites and Twitter: kelly.hogaboom.org, underbellie.com, @kellyhogaboom, and @underbellie.

The interview with me and my mother that Kelly mentions: La Rééducation: An Unschooling Interview with a Mother and Daughter

Naomi Aldort on How Children Learn Manners

And I do believe that's all the links I can remember being mentioned!  However, it's quite likely I forgot some.  If you notice any ones mentioned in the podcast but missing here in this post, please let me know and I'll add them! 

This is a new project, and one I want to improve, so comments, questions, suggestions, are much appreciated!

La Rééducation: An Unschooling Interview with a Mother and Daughter

An episode of La Rééducation, a Quebec web-series on education, featuring an interview my mother and I did last April, is now out!



The first few minutes are of my friend Marike (unschooling mother and one of two people behind the freeschool starting up in Montreal), in French, and our interview starts, in English, at 3:44.

I find it interesting seeing this now, a year after it was recorded, as my answers to Mathieu's (the guy who put together this series) questions, the things I emphasized, would definitely be different were a similar interview to be conducted now.  Some of my opinions on unschooling have definitely changed (though nothing specifically mentioned in this video), I no longer really differentiate between unschooling and radical unschooling when I'm talking about it, and similar things...  Regardless, I'm pretty happy with what my mum and I had to say (mostly me...  Sorry for hogging the interview, mom!).

La Rééducation and La Déséducation (part 2 and 1 of this series, respectively) are currently only available in French, but a translation is in the works, and soon they'll be available in English as well!  It's a very interesting look at education in Quebec, it's problems, peoples opinions on it, and some marvelous solutions...

Podcast: A Conversation Between Grown Unschooled Siblings

I've been wanting to try making podcasts for a while now.  And guess what?  I finally did!  In this first episode of a podcast series that may, possibly, be called Unschoolers Are Us (I really haven't decided on a definite name yet), Emi joins me, and we talk about our unschooling experience.  So I am very happy to present you with the first episode:

Listen to internet radio with idzie on Blog Talk Radio

You can also listen to it at the following link: A Conversation Between Grown Unschooled Siblings

My vision for this podcast is for it to be a series of interesting interviews/discussions with unschoolers of all ages, as well as other people with interesting things to say about freedom-based and alternative education.  I'll keep everyone up to date on any developments/future episodes! 

If you like this idea, you may also want to check out Radio Free School and The Unschooler Experiment, both of which post very interesting podcasts. 

Comments, questions, suggestions, on this very exciting (at least to me) project are very welcome!!  (Also, apparently the site I'm using at the moment [I'm thinking I'll probably try to find something better at some point] inserts adds into archived episodes, so know if you encounter any, I haven't added them deliberately, and as long as I use BlogTalkRadio there's nothing I can do about it.)